gonk
Audiophile
Technical Host
Posts: 30
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Post by gonk on May 9, 2007 12:05:27 GMT -5
I'll help get the ball rolling here in this forum. This is a duplicate of information gathered in a thread at AV123, so if Emotiva does become active in this forum it might be useful to have this information repeated here. It is broken into two sections: an "issue list" for bugs and a "question list" for comments and questions that aren't necessarily bugs but would be good to get clarification on. UPDATE: See this post for an updated list posted on July 15. LMC-1 Issue List- Pro Logic II/IIx Music/Movie selection: I'm going to break this out of the "surround mode memory" item in my original post since it appears to be a separate issue. The LMC-1 appears to want to stay set to Pro Logic II Music mode even when the user tries to set it to Movie or Virtual. This was originally reported by cburbs in this thread and has been confirmed by several others even with units shipped in the last week or two (which have the latest firmware). Based on MerlinWerks' tests in early April, we have some more details that I forgot to add here yesterday. The PLII/IIx mode can generally be changed without problem when the input signal is analog or PCM stereo. You will need to enter the "Mode Select" sub-menu to make the change (the "Dolby" button still exhibits some behavioral quirks based on MerlinWerks' tests). Changing the PLII/IIx mode for Dolby Digital sources seems to only work if you have the unit set to apply Pro Logic II/IIx to analog/PCM stereo sources. If you have done that and are listening to a Dolby Digital 2.0 source, you will need to change to a source that is either analog or PCM stereo in order to change the PLII/IIx mode and then change back to your Dolby 2.0 source. For Dolby Digital 5.1 sources, you need to change to an analog stereo source to change the PLII/IIx mode (PCM stereo sources will allow either Music or Movie mode selection, but not any other modes).
- Surround Mode Preference Memory: Surround mode "stickiness" appears to be missing, even from units shipping with the latest firmware. Does the LMC-1 use pre-defined default modes for different source formats? I haven't been able to find a consistent pattern in the reports from different users, but there have been numerous comments (marjen, MerlinWerks, ...) that suggest that the unit defaults to specific pre-defined modes when encountering PCM and Dolby 2.0 sources - with no way for the user to "teach" the unit what their preference is for those source types. We could really use some official documentation on what logic is being used to select modes, and why that logic is in place at all instead of the more common (and much more useful) approach of remembering user preferences. MerlinWerks posted detailed summary here in early April. His testing indicated that the LMC-1 employs a single global mode preference memory for all stereo analog and PCM sources (applied to all inputs), and that Dolby 2.0/5.1 decoding would default to that single global preference when the unit had locked onto an analog or PCM stereo source prior to detecting the Dolby Digital bitstream.
- Missing Center Channel with Dolby 5.1: This is an intermittent issue (fixed by toggling through modes manually to re-select Dolby Digital) that Dan has said they have not been able to isolate and resolve. Might it be possible later to make a dongle-installed firmware update to fix this?
- Dolby EX displayed when Dolby 2.0 or 5.1 is decoded with no additional processing: Dolby EX appears to automatically "engage" with Dolby 2.0 sources. Dan has confirmed that this is a labeling issue and that Dolby Digital decoding is being applied only, resulting in two channel output. This has not been changed in the latest firmware. Can this be a dongle-instaled fix later? Based on testing by danganh in late March and early April, it appears that "Dolby EX" is displayed when pure Dolby Digital processing is being applied to both Dolby 2.0 and Dolby 5.1 sources, such that no surround back information is derived. This is true for both 5.1 setups and 6.1/7.1 setups that include surround back speakers - thus making it possible for users with 7.1 systems to mistakenly believe that Dolby EX is active when it is not.
- DTS ES Matrix/NEO:6 does not work with DTS 5.1 sources: We've had some good news on this front - Dan has confirmed that this behavior was a bug. This should also have been fixed in the latest firmware, but we haven't gotten user confirmation of it yet.
- Intermittent Extended Signal Acquisition Delay: Dan confirmed that with some sources (satellite receivers being the worst offenders) the signal acquisition time can increase from the normal time of 2 or 3 seconds to 10 or 15 seconds.
- Dolby Remote Button: This is a new bug, seen by danganh and MerlinWerks when using the latest firmware. MerlinWerks' experience indicates that the Dolby button will offer 3CH if pressed the first time a Dolby 2.0 source is detected, followed PLIIx, then not move from PLIIx no matter how many times the button is pushed. He has some specific details in this post. MerlinWerks test results (posted here) also provided some more detail on this issue. The behavior depends on whether or not your default mode for analog sources is Pro Logic IIx For Dolby 2.0 and 5.1 sources and a default mode of PLIIx for analog stereo sources, the Dolby mode button cycles through 3CH/AC3/DDex/PLIIx Music once before sticking at PLIIx Music (note that DDex should not be an option for Dolby 2.0 sources). After that, you must enter the Mode Select sub-menu to make changes. For Dolby 2.0 and 5.1 sources when the default mode for analog stereo sources is not a PLIIx mode, the only option available via the Dolby button is PLIIx. You must enter the Mode Select sub-menu to make changes.
LMC-1 Question List- Firmware Update Dongle: We know that the dongle to allow users to update firmware at home is coming soon, but there also appear to be certain portions of the LMC-1's operating firmware that cannot be updated with this dongle. Dan's recent post about their availability indicates that users will be asked to ship the dongles back to Emotiva after they're through. Can we get any specifics on what issues still require a trip to Tennessee and how future firmware updates (beyond the one that will fix DTS ES) will be handled?
- Alternative to the Dongle: Without any details on what this firmware update dongle entails, I'll ask what may be a silly question. DOes this thing include some sort of electronics, or is it simply a specialized serial cable? If it were a serial cable, could the pin mapping be provided to LMC-1 owners so they would have the option of picking up a $5 serial cable at Radio Shack, cutting one end off, and making their own "dongle"?
- Documentation: Danganh's disappointment is exactly the sort of thing that I was worried about when I brought this up initially. Everyone would benefit from some sort of FAQ or manual addendum that details things like bass management and surround mode selection logic.
- Variable/Fixed Line Outputs: Several users have confirmed that the line outputs for recording are variable rather than fixed as indicated in the manual. Fixed outputs are typically preferred for recording. Is there a workaround for the variable outputs or a reason for implementing variable outputs?
My original list was posted on March 13, 2007 as the first post of this thread, then updated in a new post here on March 28 and edited a couple times on April 2 and 3. |
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Post by The Administrator on May 9, 2007 12:39:12 GMT -5
Woo hoo. Content!  Thanks for the post, Gonk. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and the work you've done on compiling the 'quirk' list of the LMC-1. Thank you for sharing it here. |
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Post by moovtune on May 9, 2007 14:40:20 GMT -5
Yes, thanks for the breakdown on the LMC-1. It was actually helpful in preventing me from getting one. But I'm still debating it, whether these problems would affect me much. I use a separate switcher because of my three 5.1 analog sources and it does digital switching as well. So on the Denon receiver I'm using as a preamp only now (LPA-1 amp) I leave it on DVD input and only have to switch between it with digital in sources and the 5.1 analog input for SACD's or HD True HD movies on my HD player. Usually the digital in would be fed a DD 5.1 signal from my DVD players or HD channels and I play it straight with no PLIIX overlay. But occasionally of course I play a CD and prefer DTS Neo 6. Will I have problems switching to that always using the same input like I do? Is it going to be stuck on PLII? And what happens when the HD channel switches to Stereo material during commercials and then back to 5.1 for the program? Does the LMC-1 switch to PLII for the commercials and then when the 5.1 program comes back it "sticks" to PLII and applies that to the 5.1 source as well?
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Post by The Administrator on May 9, 2007 15:03:38 GMT -5
On my LMC-1 with firmware c. April 2007, you may have a problem.
I had no issues with analog or digital PCM streams. The LMC would behave exactly as I expected. It was only with DD2.0 and DD5.1 streams that gave me issues.
If I was watching something with a DD5.1 stream, and would then flip to a DD2.0 channel, it would normally revert to just straight, 2-channel processing, or sometimes DPLII:Music. I wanted DPLII:Movie processing. To get this, I had to flip to a PCM channel (or Pause my DVR), activate DPLII:Movie, then flip back to the DD2.0, being careful to avoid any 5.1 source (as that would mess it up again). Then it would 'stick' in DPLII:Movie. If I then flipped to DD5.1, it would flip to pure DD5.1 processing as expected. But still, it wouldn't automatically select DPLII processing on DD2.0, and neither the DOLBY button on the remote nor accessing it from the system menu would allow DPLII:Movie. That was the annoying part. The DOLBY button didn't do anything, and the system menu would only allow DPLII:Matrix or occasionally DPLII:Music, or some such nonsense. You could plainly tell it was a software bug, as I moved the menu selection down it would respond briefly and then jump back to the previous setting.
IMHO, there are two things that Emotiva really needs to fix:
1) Let the user specify that DD2.0 sources should default to XXX processing mode from YYY source, and make it stick. All it has to do is remember that I set it up that TV/SAT Input = DPLII:Movie on all streams unless it's a DD5.1/DTS stream.
2) Fix the DOLBY button and the system menu to allow the user to pick any choice of surround sound processing from any source.
For me, if those bugs were fixed I would re-purchase one immediately and be happy. I'd be tempted to re-purchase it if they fixed item 2 alone, because at least then I could write a macro on my remote to correctly select the mode...
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Post by moovtune on May 9, 2007 16:26:39 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, that's what I was afraid the situation was going to be based on the mentioned problems. So I'm with you, that's a necessary couple of fixes before I would purchase that processor. My Denon is a lot "smarter" than the LMC-1 seems to be.
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Post by brewta on May 10, 2007 21:51:01 GMT -5
I have been debating whether these issues will apply to me and would appreciate any input. Currently am using a Denon AVR3200 with a Pioneer CLD-D406 Laserdisc player (hardly used any more), Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300 cable box/DVR ( only occasionally run through the HT), Pioneer DV-525 DVD player, and LG RC199H VCR/DVD Recorder hooked up to it. Have decided on an MPS-1 configured for 5 channels, only have a 5.1 setup now, and was debating which Pre/Pro to go with it. Will mainly be used when watching DVDs and as mentioned, may occasionally be used with the cable. Would appreciate anyone's thoughts (Gonk  ) on this matter. Tom |
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Post by moovtune on May 11, 2007 11:58:26 GMT -5
I'm in a similar situation, where I have the LPA-1 and want to get a pre-pro - but I don't want to have to replace it again in 6 months when the newer ones come out. If you're planning on getting into either of the HD formats soon, you may want to wait. Perhaps try out the LMC-1 to see if it'll work in the interm and to take advantage of the 40% off their future prepro. If you think it's going to be a year or more before any upgrades, then the MMC-1 or the DMC-1 (which is now on sale) would work great I would think. Or do as I'm doing now, use the Denon as your preamp. I couldn't find literature on te 3200, but if it's similar to the 3300 then you have preamp outs.
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Post by brewta on May 11, 2007 20:07:19 GMT -5
Unfortunately I don't have the pre outs  or I would do just that. Was considering the MMC-1 or even the DMC-1 because of the sale but would like to upgrade to a newer model with more features when they come out. Don't know if I can justify the extra cash for an interim piece. On the other hand, if the LMC-1 causes the wife grief it would be money well spent for the higher model ;D. |
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Post by raylock on May 11, 2007 21:01:12 GMT -5
On the other hand, if the LMC-1 causes the wife grief it would be money well spent for the higher model ;D. Exactly! I will be using the MMC until the new model comes out. I had also planned on the LMC-1 but decided that the WAF for operating that unit would be too big a hurdle. ;D Ray |
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gonk
Audiophile
Technical Host
Posts: 30
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Post by gonk on May 11, 2007 21:12:33 GMT -5
From all that I've read, the LMC-1 is not generally going to be "spouse friendly" - the really long start-up delay and the lack of surround mode memory are likely to create some problems, and the slow signal acquisition time would be an absolute deal-breaker for my wife.
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Post by The Administrator on May 12, 2007 10:33:33 GMT -5
FWIW, the long startup delay didn't affect me. I use a Harmony 550 to fire up the whole AV rack. It would turn on the LMC first, and then the TV, satellite receiver/DVR, then configure the TV input, and take me to the 'DVR' screen on the sat. The LMC would finish ramping up the volume just as the DVR screen popped up, for a total startup time of about 15 seconds. It really wasn't a big deal, and anyone with a universal remote could program in a quick startup macro to do a manual override on the volume to halt the ramp-up. One publicised 'quirk' that I felt was a non-issue.   From all that I've read, the LMC-1 is not generally going to be "spouse friendly" - the really long start-up delay and the lack of surround mode memory are likely to create some problems, and the slow signal acquisition time would be an absolute deal-breaker for my wife. |
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gonk
Audiophile
Technical Host
Posts: 30
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Post by gonk on May 12, 2007 10:55:34 GMT -5
If you have an RF-capable remote that will do macros so that aiming the remote isn't an issue, a start-up macro would be an easy solution. Any time a macro lasts more than a few seconds with an IR remote, though, I worry about casual users not keeping it "on target" long enough and having certain steps get missed. I've considered moving from an MX-700 to an MX-850 a time or two for this very reason.
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Post by brewta on May 13, 2007 10:49:46 GMT -5
Any time a macro lasts more than a few seconds with an IR remote, though, I worry about casual users not keeping it "on target" long enough and having certain steps get missed. Happens all the time with the better half on the H628! She hits watch TV and sets it on the coffee table before it sends everything and then starts swearing at the TV till I come in and save the day. Which begs the question; Do I go with the MMC or the flagship DMC for $100 more? Haven't had time to do an in-depth comparison so can anyone tell me the big difference? It is my understanding that the MMC is a reiteration of the DMC with internal HDMI switching sans the balanced outputs. Is that an accurate statement or am I missing something? If it is accurate, then is it a major advantage to go with balanced over unbalanced or is it more of a personal preference? |
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Post by The Administrator on May 13, 2007 12:00:20 GMT -5
Just an FYI. Over on AV123, Dan made a comment that they have been working on the LMC-1 and may soon have some answers regarding the problems. He offered no further details, but I'm going to be optimistic and hope for some good news next week.
It is my understanding that there are very few (if any) differences 'under the hood' between the DMC and MMC. the DMC has a full set of balanced outputs, a non-functional firewire port, and no internal HDMI switcher.
Otherwise and except for cosmetics and the remote, they're the same.
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Post by placebo473 on May 13, 2007 14:17:12 GMT -5
Although I think Emotiva should be more open to the limitations on the LMC-1 platform, I think the value of the combo trumps it's quirks. Throw in it's no-hassle 30-day return policy and future 40% discount adds to it's already great value. Is there another competitively priced pre-pro/combo on the market?
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) on this matter. 
or I would do just that. Was considering the MMC-1 or even the DMC-1 because of the sale but would like to upgrade to a newer model with more features when they come out. Don't know if I can justify the extra cash for an interim piece. On the other hand, if the LMC-1 causes the wife grief it would be money well spent for the higher model ;D. 
